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| Definition of Elite Quaterback/Player | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 19 2013, 01:16 AM (2,501 Views) | |
| Pookie | Oct 19 2013, 01:16 AM Post #1 |
Pookie Powa!
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I am bringing this debate here because this way we don't ruin the other topic.
You're allowing your biased opinion to take over your judgement. I never said Alex Smith was a bad quarterback or the fact that he wasn't a factor on the 49ers team. HOWEVER, I think that the players that he had around him were a BIG influence on him being solid. He even had the legendary RANDY MOSS on his team. He is not an elite YET and don't kid yourself. If we are putting Alex Smith in that category, you might as well put Tony Romo or Jay Cutler who have YET to prove anything.
If you're talking about the Steelers and Ben, he has already proven himself twice. He has won TWO Superbowls, and he did it VERY EARLY in his career.
Hypocrite how? I'm a hypocrite because I won't categorize Alex Smith in the elite category because he hasn't proven it yet? You sir have lost some of your marbles. Both Lawrence Tayler and Ray Lewis are legendary players in their positions. They were elite because they won championships and were the FOUNDATION of their teams. It's what matters in this league. I hate to burst your bubble, but nobody ever remembers 2nd place.
What point are you trying to make here?
Are you really going to compare Barry Sanders to Alex Smith who play completely different positions? Barry Sanders was an elite because he was a running back who broke records and carried his team ON his back much like Peterson does today. What record has Alex Smith broken? What has he done in his career to say WOW? What has he done besides go to the NFC Championship game ONLY to lose a game everyone was certain the 49ers would win. The bottom line is, when it is all said and done, people look at championships. A quarterback is the center piece of a team. If we compare Peyton to Tom Brady, who would you say was better? Tom brady. Why? He has three superbowl rings. This argument will never change. It won't change. Dan Marino was an elite quarterback because he broke records. At the end of the day, when people describe Dan Marino, they say this: "He is the best quarterback to NEVER win a superbowl." You know what that tells me? It tells me that if he had won a superbowl, he'd be ranked much higher than he was. He is known for not winning a superbowl because that IS what matters. It is extremely important because that is what teams play for. |
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Oct 21 2013, 04:51 AM Post #31 |
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@Pookie... Read my post thoroughly, and show some respect in a debate you started, respond if you don't I'm taking it as if you've for fitted.Don't care what Dein Sanders thinks, that's just his opinion, if he told you that Eli was the greatest of all time would you believe him? Knowing you, you'd probably start giggling with enjoyment and make a thread on here just because of someones opinion lol. Hey Fulgore I heard Deion Sanders called Kerry Collins the greatest QB ever, lets just believe him *hillbilly laugh* Yes you don't pay someone to loose but you also have to pay an entire team to win the SB, winning the SB is a team accomplishment. Like in the current season just because the Giants are paying Eli to win it doesn't mean he's gonna win right? Right, because you have to have a good solid team around you to get to the promise land, the ELITE can win without being stacked at every position like Arron Rodgers for years hes had a terrible defense, bad O-line, and no RB(until now) pretty much like Eli, yet Arron is consistent game in game out throwing TD's left and and right(not int's lol) even with all those negatives he can still win., and hes even won a SB, that is an ELITE QB! Unlike Eli who looks lost out there cuz his O-line doesn't give him 100% protection or his defense isn't playing that great, throwin int's to everyone and there momma, Eli should take a page out of Alex Smith's book and call an audible and run the ball, it'll at least keep the defense honest... and plays alive, also keep his defense fresh. Are you kidding me?! Alex has only had 1 and half seasons with a solid team around him and he's 20-6 since Harbs came in and turned the entire team around, and 7-0 with the Chiefs, that win loss record more than certifies him as not only a good game manager but the best game manager in the game today. And I'm not the only who thinks that NFL personnel how study the game as their life depended on it, saw the elite game manager trait in him and decided they wanted him so they traded for him and the Niners received 2 second round picks which is an amazing haul for Alex, and shows his worth. So please stop with your absurd claim that he isn't a game manager when its been proven already... Man the ineptitude your showin pookie is just.... ughh...  If you actually opened your eyes and read, like I've been saying for days, you'd know I never put the elite label on alex as I do on a QB like Arron cuz Rodgers is ELITE, Alex has an elite trait, like game managing but I never put them on the same level.  I said Alex has an elite Game managing trait just as Eli has an elite clutch trait, simple as that get it through your head. In the quote above you clearly contradicted yourself, stating SB's victory's make you elite period, while your response is obvious that your back-pedaling stating that winning SB's is important in deciding whether he was elite... Pretty obvious...  You contradicted yourself again, you said that I don't read your posts, yet I'm quoting every single one your sentences? What? Are you serious I RESPECT you, I read you post and quote them and give my respond to them, that is a debate. No they're not, so just because Jim Kelly or Marino have never won a SB then that makes them not elite? You said it yourself "winning a SB separates an elite QB from ok QB's" which is idiotic. Yes Pookie there are QB's with 1 or even ZERO SB victory's that are elite in every essence of the word and are in the HOF. Dan Marino and Alex Smith are two completely different QB's, Alex does have something to show for him being given the elite game manager trait which is he won the NFC WEST, and did what many though was impossible for Alex to win a shootout which Alex showed he can do, against one of the best if if not the best in the NFL currently, and was clutch in that game. In the following game he wasn't even given the chance to be clutch cuz thats when the 2 muffed punts occurred late in the game when QB's rise to the occasion. Ranked higher? Imo Dan Marino is one of the 6 greatest QB's to ever play the game there isn't much separation between those 6. The only other better gun slinger QB other than Marino is probably Brett Favre in his prime so please stop with the idiocy. First of all to get into the HOF isn't that great of a task tbh Jim Kelly and Marino got in fairly easy and neither of them have a SB victory, so hope that answers your question. Pookie whats your obsession with the HOF doe? Seems like a pretty dumb argument in all honesty...  Thats already been discsussed it was obvious that Peyton > Brady in regular season Vs. Brady post season > Peyton Pookie you are pretty much stating that Trent Dilfer is on a higher league than Jim Kelly or Dan Marino how does that make sense?! Please answer me. When? Show me a post of someone I labeled elite from the 49ers other than in this debate in which I'm referring to Alex Smith's "elite" game manager trait, just like Eli has his "elite" clutch trait, pretty straight forward... Should I dumb it down sum mor 4 u?  If you read my entire post I was referring to how Alex Smith is a game manager but can overcome adversity and step up when needed and win a shootout which many though he couldn't, I never said that single game made him elite, just that it made him a good leader and an elite game manager... Not according to you... And I quote "Legendary: Brett, Brady, Peyton Elite: Brees, Aaron, Ben, Flacco, Eli Good/Can be Elite: Russel Wilson, Kaepernick, Smith, Tony Romo, Phillip Rivers, Mathew Stafford Everyone else: Weeden (you get the point)" - Pookie While Brees and Arron rodgers are clearly better QB's than Eli ever will you put them at "Elite" which is suitable, but many on this forum or even the entire US will tell you that Arron and Brees who are elite are levels higher than Eli will ever be yet you put Eli next to them, which is redundent, cuz no way in HELL are Eli and Rodgers on the same playing field. You fail to realize that winning SB are team accomplishments, we are discussing players not teams Pookie, lets say if there was a draft on just QB's who in your opinion would go first? 1.Peyton(currently) 2.Brady 3.Arron Rodgers 4.Drew Brees 5.Andrew Luck----------------------------Everyone above is elite, everyone under here is just everyone else... 6.Matt Ryan 7.Matthew Stafford 8.Eli 9.Jay Cutler My point is simple, elite is a seasonal term, right now there are only 4 elite QB's in the league currently. If Arron Rodgers who is elite can win consistently with a sh***t defense and a bad O-line and no RB then, then so should Eli he should be able to win under essentially the same situations, which he's shown he can't thus taking him out of the elite category Arron Rodgers is in. And don't give me that sorry excuse "Eli is just having a bad season" You can say that about Eli every other year, he's to inconsistent to be "ELITE" Point, blank, period! Edited by Volt the Mean, Oct 21 2013, 05:10 AM.
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| Fulgore | Oct 21 2013, 05:01 AM Post #32 |
The Darkness Returns
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Well said. Agreed on 4 elites. Aaron Rodgers nad Drew Brees are the ones who can be mentioned. Brady and Peyton are obvious Legends. They don't need to be mentioned. |
 Self-proclaimed and unoffical 2013-14 DBZF Weekly NFL Pick 'em Champion | |
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| Pookie | Oct 21 2013, 03:31 PM Post #33 |
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Pookie Powa!
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@Volt- I won't read your debate fully until you start reading mine, acknowledging facts that you don't, belittling everything (if you do not know what that means, look it up,) and trying to make quotes into what they aren't. Oh and I have read your posts fully because if you read what I said, I added that ALEX SMITH IS NOT AN ELITE ANYTHING b/c, and I gave my reason so all along I have read all your posts. I have understood what exactly you were debating, yet you keep saying things like "should I dumb it down for you?"
HOF=Elite Elite=HOF (Every player strives to get into the HOF because it means you were an elite. ) Dan Marino=Broke records, but it still said to be the best qb to never win a superbowl. Therefore, superbowls are important whether you want to just negate that is on you. Alex Smith= Hasn't won anything in his life, has no records, and Eli Manning is better than him in almost every category Again, I must repeat myself so that you get the picture. Alex Smith is not an elite ANYTHING until he proves by winning a championship game that MATTERS because EVEN DAN MARINO has an AFC CHAMPIONSHIP win.
Lol, it's not only Deon Sanders that says Eli Manning is an Elite sorry to burst your bubble. It's a lot of analysts around the league. I guess you know more than all of them put together. You make it seem like I'm stupid with that quote that I'd believe anything I heard. When it comes to stats and history, I've posted more than both of you combined. You two are the ones who try to make it seem like every 49ers player is godsend (you can basically blame Fulgore for that because he generally does.) I've never once mentioned Kerry Collins as an elite or even the best. He is my favorite, but unlike you guys I'm not blinded by the fact that he was on the Giants. Also, he actually has an NFC championship win. I can't say the same for Alex Smith.
Yet if Alex Smith had won a superbowl with the 49ers you'd say it was all him.
Eli Manning has 2. ![:=]:](http://b1.ifrm.com/1500/25/0/e1137/e1137.gif)
I won't bother to debate with someone who compares Alex Smith to Eli Manning when Eli has better stats in almost every category and has already proven himself worthy.
It's not a contradiction because you quote me, but not any of the facts that I have posted, taken time to take pictures of, and the links I have posted. You ignore it. If you truly read every word of my post, you'd see links as to why that opinion is supported. I don't just pull opinions out of my a***. You should already know me by now. In short, you do not respect me. If you had respected me, you wouldn't make it seem like I am getting emotional when it isn't true, belittling my facts, and/or trying to make it appear that you are far superior when it comes to knowledge when you haven't even taken a second to look at any of the facts that I posted. They go right over your head. Times you disrespected my opinions and me in this debate One (Completely disrespecting an opinion that was based off facts)
Two (Did the same thing)
Three (Made up things that aren't true. I'm totally sad because like Volt and Fulgore don't agree with me that Eli Manning is elite despite all the facts that are presented. I'm going to cry in a corner now  ....right. )
Four (Belittling like I'm some bimbo when everything I have said up to this point is true and backed up with facts/knowledge. You try to make it seem like you had proven your point when you didn't prove anything.)
Five (Calling my opinion disgusting gee I love it. I think that was the 3rd time before this quote)
Six (LOL again making it seem like I'm losing it when every multi winning superbowl quarterback is in the HOF. Yes, I just answered your question)
Seven (They just keep racking up don't they?)
^If you call those comments your idea of respect, then I don't want your respect because your respect means being belittled, making me seem like a child, and completely disregarding my opinion when it is backed up by SOLID facts.
You're right about his rushing. I'll give you that. Aaron rodgers doesn't have much of a running game, but how did that help him the couple of times he played the Giants/Eli? He lost didn't he? You said that Alex Smith went toe to toe with Drew Brees, yet when I said the same about Eli with Aaron, it isn't validated. You can put up amazing numbers throughout the regular season, but what matters is the post season. Tom Brady will always be known to be better than Peyton because he has more superbowls. This is a fact despite everything you may say about Peyton's regular season numbers. Aaron Rodgers is an elite. He has a superbowl win to show for it, and there is no debate that he isn't an elite, but to say Eli Manning isn't an elite after everything that he has done throughout his career is insulting. Eli Manning had a mediocre team as you and Fulgore constantly say because we got super lucky in all the away games we played , but Aaron Rodgers had a solid team too. You are kidding yourself when you say that Aaron Rodgers has no help . He had a number 1 ranked defense in 2011.
Just so you know, my list would go like this which I feel is a lot more accurate than yours.
Also, when you put quarterbacks like Mathew Stafford, Jay Cutler (you did in the past,) and Andrew Luck who haven't proven anything in the post season then I know this debate is a lost cause. 49ers have the best of everything despite the fact their players haven't earned it. The reason I say this is at all because of how Fulgore likes to throw everything out of proportion. Since you two enjoy agreeing on similar opinions, then that's why I group you two together. This debate is over. Until the two of you start answering my questions and looking at the facts rather than belittling my opinions, then have fun debating between the two of you because that is what you two do best. Russel Wilson is indeed having a Sophomore slump being 6-1 this season. Yup. Get over yourselves. Eli Manning is an elite because once a player has multi superbowl wins, then it isn't luck anymore. It's called skill. Punto Finale Edited by Pookie, Oct 21 2013, 04:32 PM.
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| Fulgore | Oct 21 2013, 07:04 PM Post #34 |
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The Darkness Returns
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For the record, Eli manning has stats ridiculously close to Alex Smith, and Alex smith had a worse team to play for during his first 4 years. So, Alex Smith is on track to have better stats  Also, let's be clear here. Everything x is nto a godsend from the 49ers. Kyle Williams. He's a godsend to eli Manning. I also don't know how you have Cam Newton over Tony Romo.. Baffles me Ben < Eli Edited by Fulgore, Oct 21 2013, 07:07 PM.
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Self-proclaimed and unoffical 2013-14 DBZF Weekly NFL Pick 'em Champion | |
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| Hurry My Curry | Oct 23 2013, 03:20 AM Post #35 |
Master Troll
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Ok Ravens fan, but Joe Flacco is not an elite QB. Infact, he's playing like hot garbage right now. I don't even recognize this Ravens team....I think that he could be a QB like Alex Smith, but his team isn't talented enough to allow him to be a game manager. To me, he will always be a tier below the Rodgers, Brees, Mannings of the world and prolly a tier below people like Romo. I stopped believing that sb's determine an elite QB, cause Flacco is definitely not equal to Peyton Manning. Don't have time to go in depth. |
| Miles for mod | |
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| Sam | Oct 23 2013, 03:50 AM Post #36 |
It takes a mere second for treasure to turn to trash.
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The definition of great, to me, is a player who is schemed against and the focal point f an offensive or defensive game plan, and still finds a way to kill them. Ala Calvin Johnson. Larry Fitzgerald is not great to me. His hands, coordination, route running, all of that is great. But he can be schemed out of a game, as we have seen many times the last few years. Calvin Johnson has all that and an unschemeable size and presence. Randy Moss was the same way. Though, I'm sure this opinion has been repeated many times  Joe Flacco is a streaky, inconsistent player and a below average QB. I really dislike the guy and how he plays. Nothing he does impresses me. |
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WoW Legion Ending - Thank you Darker for making this into one, big incredible gif! <3 | |
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| Hurry My Curry | Oct 23 2013, 02:45 PM Post #37 |
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Master Troll
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I've always felt that Larry Fitzgerald was incredibly overrated. I can think of 10 WR's off the top of my head I'd rather have than Fitz right now. Calvin, AJ Green, Dez, Andre, Julio, Brandon Marshall, Victor Cruz, Vincent Jackson, Percy Harvin, and Wes Welker are all receivers I'd rather have than Fitz right now. Cause as you said, Fitz is limited because his athleticism is not on par with the new crop of WR. You can have all the hands, route running in the world, but he's just not athletic enough to beat this new breed of CB's or get ahead of the freakish athletic WR's. |
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| Sam | Oct 24 2013, 04:37 AM Post #38 |
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It takes a mere second for treasure to turn to trash.
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He is still an excellent receiver, no doubt, but, injuries and inconsistency has slowed him down. Also, you guys need to be more respectful. All of you. I don't care about your childish "he/she started it!" arguments, don't be pricks. Period. To me, Eli is not elite. He is good, not great. I doubt he ever will be. Jim Kelly made it to what, four or five Superbowls in a row. If he won any or a couple of them he would be considered a legend. To me, making it to the Superbowl FIVE TIMES in a row is better than winning the Superbowl once or twice. Why are QBs graded by Superbowls but most other players are not? You can't quarterback a blocked or missed field goal. There are 52 other s***heads on the roster. It is more of a reflection on the coach or GM than the QB. In fact, I put the same amount of Superbowl value on a QBs career as I would a punters. There are 53 people on a team. Not one. There are 22 offensive/defensive starters. Not one. I don't care about the quarterback supposedly being the leader and/or game manager, it's not all on him. |
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WoW Legion Ending - Thank you Darker for making this into one, big incredible gif! <3 | |
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| Fulgore | Oct 24 2013, 07:24 AM Post #39 |
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The Darkness Returns
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Bravo.. Holy s***, a very good point and very well spoken 
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Self-proclaimed and unoffical 2013-14 DBZF Weekly NFL Pick 'em Champion | |
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| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
This is the third time I've asked, yet no response other then telling me what I have already written.
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